In their first episode of 2023, Andy and Alyssa discuss Goosebumps Series 2000 #23, Slappy's Nightmare. Along the way they discuss curses, stand-up horror, the nature of good deeds, doubles, multiple POVs, and a twist on the usual Slappy narrative.
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[00:00:00] Jimmy finished reading, then slowly said the pages down. It just put a curse on you Slavvy,
[00:00:12] he announced. Normally, Slavvy would crack a joke when Jimmy said something like that,
[00:00:16] but now in case we leave the ventriloquist. A curse. Jimmy nodded,
[00:00:20] You've done too much evil Slavvy, you have heard too many people. We're in too many lives, including mine.
[00:00:26] You asked for one more chance. Here it is. The only way you can stay alive is to do good.
[00:00:39] Hello, we're gonna off our game. Hello and welcome to Say Podcast and Die.
[00:00:46] It is the queer pop culture podcast about Bruce Bumps and horror and we are Andy and Alyssa
[00:00:52] and we have been doing stuff so many stuff. So many stuff, but now we're back. And it's good to be back.
[00:00:58] So happy to do this other this one this stuff gets one stuff back into our stuff roster.
[00:01:04] Yeah, and we're also back to recording in our baby's room. So you'll get some of the dulcet sounds of New York City in the background.
[00:01:12] Yeah, we decided to lighten up a bit and just let there be airplanes, let there be sirens. You know what you're welcome.
[00:01:20] Think of it as RL Steins background noise while he's writing these very books.
[00:01:24] Exactly, we're trying to give you, we're trying to put you in his head.
[00:01:28] It's scary place to be as this book Slavvy's nightmare.
[00:01:32] Slavvy's nightmare. That's right. We are back to the series 2000.
[00:01:36] Yeah, and we're almost done with the series 2000. So our wild when you told me how many books we had left because I'd forgotten.
[00:01:41] It's been months and I can't believe we're almost done with it.
[00:01:44] Well, we are hoping to be able to release one episode a month.
[00:01:48] We think that's a manageable goal for the time being and you know maybe faster in the future.
[00:01:54] But for now this seems achievable. Yeah, we just want to be doing it.
[00:01:58] Be talking about this. Be talking to you.
[00:02:00] Yeah, and we know we have tons of interactions and messages and things to catch up on.
[00:02:05] And also that is something we fully intend to do.
[00:02:09] Thank you for bearing with us. We're excited to back.
[00:02:12] So in a nutshell, Slavvy gets cursed to have to do good deeds.
[00:02:18] And I think he actually does them. But for some reason he doesn't think they count because Wally, a dummy who's yet another Slavvy double undoes them.
[00:02:28] And then the girl Slavvy ended up being gifted to for the period of good deed doing.
[00:02:36] Throws him into a trash compact or garbage compact or sort of thing.
[00:02:41] He smashes to smithereens, but then it turns out it was all a dream. But then maybe it wasn't.
[00:02:47] Yeah, yeah, you're somewhere that's a lot more generous than mine which would have been it was all a dream.
[00:02:52] Yeah, I mean there was content but that twist at the end. I think they must have just come up with the concept and then written a totally different book and then stuck it back on at the end.
[00:03:01] Because somehow Jimmy O James who returns in this book, the ventriloquist performer.
[00:03:08] For a ride of the living dummy.
[00:03:10] Yeah, who's Slavvy unfortunately finds himself saddled with seems to have known what happened in Slavvy's dream.
[00:03:16] Yeah, it's very strange. Yeah, before we dive into the book itself let's talk about this cover.
[00:03:21] It's simple to the point I don't really like the rendition of Slavvy.
[00:03:25] It's very angular. Yeah, very shiny and contorted.
[00:03:29] Yeah, it's got a very upturned nose.
[00:03:32] He has a purple sheep sheep sheep.
[00:03:36] Oh yeah he does!
[00:03:37] Which I like those they also have kind of similar intense eyes to his.
[00:03:43] It is my favorite thing about the cover I think. He's wearing gloves to bed.
[00:03:47] It's a very strange choice.
[00:03:50] All right so let's dive in.
[00:03:52] We opened with Jimmy O James. I just laughed at the name and then I realized oh wait we know Jimmy O James.
[00:03:57] Yeah, and then went back to my bride of the living dummy notes.
[00:03:59] He is the one who Jillian got Slavvy from after another disastrous performance in bride of living dummy.
[00:04:05] And we opened in much the same way.
[00:04:09] He starts doing his routine. Slavvy gets rude.
[00:04:14] They invite people up to meet Slavvy and for some reason there's no takers because he's just been a jerk all night.
[00:04:19] Well, and it's interesting because you think on some level I feel like Jimmy O James and Slavvy are working in two different universities of stand-up.
[00:04:25] Because Jimmy O James is like I just want to make kids laugh the end. It's not complicated.
[00:04:30] And Slavvy is always trying to push him to be a bit more avant-garde and make the audience increasingly uncomfortable.
[00:04:35] Like what's his name Lee? Stuart Lee. Stuart Lee kind of a thing.
[00:04:38] I think he's more of an insult comic. I don't know if he's quite Stuart Lee.
[00:04:42] But he wants to ratchet it up where he's like how can I make everyone stop thinking it's funny?
[00:04:46] Well still being within the universe of a joke, like moving from which hand do we soup with oh I use a spoon to like what would you say if I step before in your eye and everyone kind of is like where's it's going right?
[00:04:57] Yeah. And there's part of me that wonders if like the real point of it is just a humiliated Jimmy.
[00:05:02] I feel like the audience is secondary. Yeah that's true.
[00:05:05] So finally they kind of control one boy up into coming to meet Slavvy. His name's Freddie.
[00:05:12] Slavvy makes some fat jokes and then bites the kids ear.
[00:05:15] I mean it wouldn't be a goosebumps book without fat shaming. That's right.
[00:05:18] And yes, the biting of the kid and then this is where it really goes from kind of a coherent joke journey to just like pure chaos right?
[00:05:30] He starts just screaming Slavvy starts screaming louder and louder and louder like a siren and everyone departs.
[00:05:35] And people start running and then they're like the doors are locked.
[00:05:38] Slavvy presumably didn't do that right? Is this just a really like fire hazard fire trap theater?
[00:05:45] I think it was a very bad theater because they probably seen similar performances on previous nights and yet keep inviting kids back.
[00:05:51] And then cue fighting Jimmy back.
[00:05:55] So afterwards they go to the dressing room and Jimmy is wailing that he'll never work again.
[00:06:01] Is he 12th? Why that he was like a young man? Oh is he? I thought so.
[00:06:05] I don't remember. I didn't remember. It would be funny though if he'll never work again.
[00:06:09] I said 12 years early to bomb that hard. And the other thing is like he seems to have not learned that he can do the act with other dummies.
[00:06:18] Right or dummies that aren't evil.
[00:06:21] So maybe he just isn't a good ventriloquist. He's committed to it. That's why he needs an evil dying.
[00:06:26] Well that's the thing I was thinking this should be an easy gig for him because he literally just has to stand there holding Slavvy and Slavvy does all the work of coming up with the act and performing.
[00:06:34] So maybe that's the problem is he has to get evil dummies or at least animate dummies because he can't come up with his own stuff.
[00:06:40] Yeah, that's true.
[00:06:41] So he starts threatening Slavvy saying, oh the act is over and Slavvy's very unimpressed.
[00:06:48] It's like I just got you great publicity. Yeah.
[00:06:51] Yeah, I think we really get a sense of Slavvy's goals here where he's like I'm trying to get us in the papers.
[00:06:56] I'm thinking big and saddled with you unfortunately.
[00:06:59] Yeah. This is he's thinking about viral marketing before viral marketing.
[00:07:04] Exactly. And then Jimmy is like well I got something to show you.
[00:07:08] And he opens the closet door of his dressing room where this is big wooden box.
[00:07:11] And inside the box it's a dummy that is identical to Slavvy.
[00:07:14] Again.
[00:07:15] But like so it's an interesting choice to bring it but leave it in the dressing room first of all.
[00:07:21] And then his name is Wally and he got him from a magic store and was made by the same evil toy maker who made Slavvy.
[00:07:28] But I know to like then why did you buy him? Why that can't it do for fun?
[00:07:34] I mean also why do you have to could like coer Slavvy with this threat when you could just replace Slavvy with this new one?
[00:07:43] But I guess if it's also evil, you know.
[00:07:45] That's the thing is like you are really giving Slavvy an opportunity by threatening him with this when he you know he could do any number of things.
[00:07:52] But I guess Jimmy seems to have this whole plan and I guess now that we've talked about him not having his own material that it does make sense.
[00:08:00] Well we also get again I think this book really develops Slavvy as a character but he gets really pissed when Jimmy or James characterizes the toy maker is evil.
[00:08:09] Yeah that's how it's calling that. That was really interesting.
[00:08:12] Yeah and as the book goes on we find out Slavvy never knew his father and toy maker whatever you want to call him and only knows him from journals he left behind.
[00:08:20] So we have a we have a protagonist we're going to get to in a minute whose father recently passed away and she's kind of a foil for Slavvy in his own absent father narrative.
[00:08:33] So apparently this dummy conveniently came with instructions for how to put Slavvy to sleep forever and bring the other dummy to life.
[00:08:41] Yeah this is why it's good to you know by I guess direct from the source you got on the part sing included.
[00:08:47] Well it was a magic shop though so it's still retail. Yeah it's true. Yeah but it wasn't like pulled out of a garbage bin. That's fair.
[00:08:54] So there's a struggle Slavvy pulls the other dummy's head off and then he tries to pull Jimmy's head off but then they're interrupted by two girls.
[00:09:02] And I thought I was so sure this was going to be Jillian and Kate and that this was like an interlocking timeline situation where oh this is playing out in parallel to Brian living dummy.
[00:09:14] No it's two different totally different girls and they both miss the show Georgia and Stella Boonshaft.
[00:09:20] Boonshaft. Boonshaft excuse me.
[00:09:22] And probably I have a note on their names later.
[00:09:25] Yeah so the consolation prizes to get to come backstage and see what's up in Jimmy's like this is a great opportunity to pass on a curse to children.
[00:09:35] And Georgia says she makes dolls and puppets and she wants to shake Slavvy's hand.
[00:09:40] It doesn't come up again that she has other puppets. It never comes up again. Yeah except that her room is messy.
[00:09:46] And she so Slavvy starts insulting her and she's just impressed. She's like wow I don't even see her lips moving.
[00:09:52] And then Jimmy says could you step out into the hall for a minute and then we get the set up where he's like look Slavvy.
[00:09:59] If I put a curse on you you have to do three good deeds or else you it doesn't say die in a week.
[00:10:04] Yeah and no evil or else you will and it doesn't say die but it says you'll go to sleep and never wake up again.
[00:10:10] Yeah.
[00:10:12] And so then he invites Georgia back into the room and also Stella and it's like take this doll.
[00:10:19] And Stella is very hurt that she didn't get anything.
[00:10:22] They have a real strong rivalry between them again.
[00:10:25] Her a little bit Slavvy and Wally.
[00:10:27] Yeah.
[00:10:28] The girls leave and we're sort of left with Jimmy going with some wise decision.
[00:10:32] Yeah.
[00:10:33] Really have asked ethics check on himself.
[00:10:36] Have I done something really horrible here today?
[00:10:38] Ah!
[00:10:39] Moving on.
[00:10:41] So that's something interesting happens which is we jump into Georgia's point of view.
[00:10:46] We were in Jimmy's head before but for the rest of the book we are sort of toggling between Georgia and Slavvy.
[00:10:54] Yes.
[00:10:55] And you know again Arles Dine mixing it up in the series 2000 with his
[00:11:01] narrative constructions, narrative period, and so Georgia is practicing her dummy routine while Stella is heckling and finger painting.
[00:11:12] Yeah.
[00:11:13] And Georgia says why are you in my room?
[00:11:15] And Stella says your room's already messy so it's fine to get finger painting everywhere.
[00:11:18] I don't know why Stella is finger painting she's kind of old to be finger painting.
[00:11:21] I couldn't tell what she was.
[00:11:23] I guess it just seems like finger painting seems like quite young.
[00:11:27] When was last time you finger painting?
[00:11:30] Praise call of a kindergarten.
[00:11:33] Yeah I don't know.
[00:11:34] It does seem like she does seem young to me.
[00:11:37] I mean should I just be doing it to mess up Georgia's room?
[00:11:40] That seems like part of it too is she is very committed to her room being neat and tidy because she contributes to the chaos in Georgia's disaster room.
[00:11:48] Mrs. Boone's shop is not doing well.
[00:11:51] We don't find out a little bit later it's because she is her husband.
[00:11:54] It seems like recently passed away and she's trying to figure out how to make everything work.
[00:11:58] How do we shuffle around responsibilities and roles in this family?
[00:12:02] Yeah, she comes in she tells Georgia you have to clean up her room or you can't go to Alison's birthday party and she says put that ugly thing away regarding Slapy.
[00:12:11] And she makes Stella leave but Stella leaves her paints behind which is obviously classic Slapy bait.
[00:12:16] Right.
[00:12:17] But he's not going to do that this time.
[00:12:19] Yeah.
[00:12:21] And so again Georgia and Slapy in the summer position she has to do a good deed but she really can't bring herself to clean up her room.
[00:12:29] She starts to try gets incredibly bored fall asleep.
[00:12:32] Georgia has big ADHD energy.
[00:12:34] Yeah for sure.
[00:12:35] Yeah, hyper focusing on learning how to be a ventriloquist does not care about the you know towers of dirty laundry and potato chip bags.
[00:12:45] Yeah, not a problem.
[00:12:47] And then so she goes to bed and Slapy removed to his point of view and he decides to clean up for hers like oh my first good deed.
[00:12:55] Yeah I mean it's a pretty good deed I just throw the animate dummy came by and cleaned my apartment.
[00:13:01] And then he gets really tired and goes to sleep which was the first point at which it started to raise questions for me about Slapy being alive.
[00:13:07] Yeah his body also after he's had to lay still he feels really achy and like he just needs to move which I thought was another interesting insight into him especially as he's kind of a full like a expression of a kid who doesn't have to pretend to be innocent or sweet.
[00:13:27] Right, but he has the same like my body's doing stuff from like I'm a everyone's always bossing me around and I'm going to do what I want.
[00:13:34] Yeah for sure. Well when he wakes up her room has been trashed and there's paint everywhere again in another book this would have been classic Slapy did it and it got blamed on another child but he thinks my hard work was wasted and he seems to think that this resets his good deeds to zero that like the deed can be undone.
[00:13:54] Yeah I have questions about evil and wrongdoing in the goose first for a theory but it is strange that he it doesn't matter if he did the deed if someone else wiped it out.
[00:14:04] And at this point and throughout most of the book even though I knew it was probably Wally based on what happened in previous Slapy books I thought maybe it is Stella.
[00:14:13] Yeah and because like Mrs. Boonchoff does not seem to have a good handle on like what to do if you have like a violent or disturbed child.
[00:14:21] Right and you know it doesn't end up messing up a room here.
[00:14:25] Yeah so he wants revenge and he starts to go into Stella's room because he's just in just in seeing red he's in revenge mode but then he's caught he thinks he might be caught by Stella's mom but she doesn't notice I mean to be fair there's more going on she doesn't really need to be.
[00:14:42] She doesn't really need to work with this dummies in the hallway or not.
[00:14:46] Yeah and she swings between kind of angrily yelling at Stella calling her a liar and then getting really upset and being like I just I'm worried about you and you know how violently swing between unpredictable emotions is a great way to encourage your child to tell the truth.
[00:15:03] Exactly.
[00:15:04] Yeah it creates a secure environment for honesty.
[00:15:07] And so she basically sentences both girls to clean Georgia's room and.
[00:15:12] While this is all going on Stella walks into Slapy's room and basically says don't fuck up my good deeds it is so apparently threatening doesn't count as evil or bad or whatever does not mark against him and all the times where he's plotting to kill Stella as the book goes on also don't count as evil in his mind at least.
[00:15:29] Yeah maybe it's because he doesn't do it or maybe because it's he's eliminating something that's creating the bad deeds.
[00:15:35] So therefore good.
[00:15:37] Oh you mean by expressing that desire he's not doing it no I mean by killing Stella he'd be stopping evil well that is what he says he's like oh well good deed out of the way then Georgia then when George she says later that when Georgia said it still is funeral all comfort her good deed.
[00:15:55] Well Stella goes to her mom and says that this happened and obviously she is not believed and Georgia just laughs when Stella when their mom says this to her.
[00:16:06] So the next morning is when we find out about the father passing away and Georgia wants to show her mom her act with Slapy but Mrs. Boone Chef that says had an appointment in town and was eager to get out of the house.
[00:16:19] And again she's like I do not have extra emotional energy for you kids right now.
[00:16:24] And because Georgia's room wasn't cleaned up in time rules or rules she can't go to Alice's party.
[00:16:30] Her mom is kind of trying to find a middle ground and so she's like well that girl Maggie Kramer broke her hip is in a wheelchair.
[00:16:40] So I want you to go over and do your office Slapy to cheer her up that would not cheer me up.
[00:16:45] No no I don't think so. I mean maybe it's a like I don't know they're really rich maybe you'll get some nice snacks and have a chill time sitting in their white column dimension on the bill stone house on a hill with five white columns were a long way from dead falls.
[00:17:02] Stella tags along wearing white shorts true to the goose verse fashion world.
[00:17:08] And she's in the 90s in the time of the book being published but in the world of fashion that's still the early 90s in the goose verse.
[00:17:13] Yes and Maggie's kind of in her own interesting separate rear window situation right she's in a wheelchair all summer because of having her her hip.
[00:17:22] But I guess because she's not near any other houses no rear window hijinks emerge it goes in a different direction yeah the lack of proximity being the problem.
[00:17:33] So Georgia's doing her act in slappy says my good deed is not ruining this interesting I like that yeah well Maggie's mom comes out says Georgia you have a phone call.
[00:17:46] And after she leaves Maggie's chair starts rolling wheelchair starts rolling down the hill and then there's a blue van coming and it hits the chair Maggie bounces out or I guess it looks like Maggie has been hit.
[00:18:00] When the dust settles Georgia runs down there and sees she hit a curb and went flying.
[00:18:05] So she's also broken her arm now but it's like kind of the miracle that she wasn't killed yeah also it is the driver of the truck a long haired man in a red Wisconsin cap this is when red caps were okay.
[00:18:18] Who's like no I didn't hit her she totally just lifted on the curb oh that's true that's true we actually don't have a closer point of view yeah.
[00:18:28] But yeah they've ratchet it up the severity of the situation yeah and Georgia asked Stella what happened and she said a dummy pushed her.
[00:18:38] And Georgia thinks her sister is sick and slappy is like I was just lying here that girls a liar right he's pretty consistently throughout the book a combination of annoyed at Stella for getting his way and impressed by really just surprised by the length she goes to because of in his view.
[00:18:57] Her jealousy for sister. I mean any consistently wants revenge on her for ruining his good deeds again arguably this one was not a good deed but you know that's that who am I to to comment on slappy's world.
[00:19:11] So that night slappy over here's Mrs. Boone shaft on the phone with her sister complaining that she thinks Stella is violent and then this is where he gets his thing about like well if I kill her I can do a good deed by comforting Georgia.
[00:19:24] Georgia puts them up on a high shelf which is more inconvenient for him because he's like at night I'll sneak out killer done but it's it's harder to get down from a high shelf.
[00:19:35] It's harder to kill someone when they expect you coming also yeah so we've a dream within the dream here where he dreams that he sneaks out and Stella like comes out and with an axe and he wakes up it's a weird thing it's like what happens to the dream then happens in real life.
[00:19:51] Yeah so basically he had fallen off the shelf and gotten hit and gotten it and got hit by an encyclopedia and it had been passed out so apparently he can have like head injuries.
[00:20:01] Yeah and yeah so then he goes into Stella's room she catches him I just want to back up for a sec though to the dream where he's going because our last time gets a little bit of on guard here.
[00:20:11] Then Stella still dressed still in jeans and a sweater her purple cap pulled down over her red hair and we have an m-like family dick and said.
[00:20:19] M- new line m- again Stella still dressed her eyes wide with fury her mouth still set in a furious scowl m- new line m- Stella carrying a long handle axe between both hands and it goes on but I was I just I saw that and I was like either someone forgot to take it out of outline form or someone was getting experimental.
[00:20:38] Yeah I like the idea that it's just his outline. I think that it's probably him trying to pace. I don't think so too yeah it works because it's flashes kind of exactly yeah it does have that effect.
[00:20:48] Maybe it's all in his work on the with the TV show that's making him think in these visual kind of ways.
[00:20:54] Oh I think he had been doing that for a while though because he'd also been working on TV for a long time.
[00:20:58] Maybe it's another one of his fouries into poetry. There you go. After the encyclopedia incident he wakes up to Mrs. Boone's shopped in the girls arguing.
[00:21:07] Well doesn't he wake up to then Stella does hit him. Oh yes you're right. Sorry about that. Yeah yeah so then after this dream much like the overarching plot of the book is going to do almost the same thing happens to him so Stella smashes him with what he thinks is an axe it's a fake out it's a baseball bat but still hurts.
[00:21:25] And he wakes up to mom and the girls arguing Stella is really upset that everyone's blaming her for everything that's going on.
[00:21:33] Their mom literally tosses her hands in the air and says I don't know what to do.
[00:21:37] And so it seems like she ends up doing nothing because she just sends them both the schools usual.
[00:21:41] I tried nothing and they're all out of ideas.
[00:21:44] Yeah then side to side killing this kid is gonna take too much time and I'm busy.
[00:21:50] So we go to Good deed attempt three babysitting horror which is our old signs wheel house. It's a dark and stormy night and Georgia is going to go babysit for a little Robbie across the street two year old Robbie through your old Robbie.
[00:22:07] She brings Slapy and she finds it very suspicious that Stella keeps asking her where she's going and she doesn't have telling her which probably shouldn't.
[00:22:15] Yeah Robbie thinks Slapy is scary so she usually puts him aside for a while.
[00:22:21] They play and she tucks him in.
[00:22:23] And Robbie is playing with action figures so we have kind of a thing here of you know Slapy's worried about Wally replacing him but what's really replacing him?
[00:22:31] He's an old school kind of toy like no kid in the 90s few kids in the 90s want a wooden dummy from like the 1930s or something.
[00:22:39] No they want Fisher Price.
[00:22:40] And then we have that plastic action figures which is what Robbie prefers.
[00:22:43] Also I thought there was a real real life horror here of it taking an hour and a half to get Robbie to bed.
[00:22:51] And yeah new perspectives on this.
[00:22:54] Georgia lays down and just completely passes out and then it gets really fucking scary.
[00:22:59] Yeah so Andy read this before me and then that night they kept after the baby going to bed they kept turning new me being like do you think I put the sleep sack on right?
[00:23:09] Do you think the baby is safe?
[00:23:10] And I was like really tall and it's in sleep sack.
[00:23:12] It's the giddy perp.
[00:23:14] And then I read the book and realized why they had been so concerned about this.
[00:23:19] Yeah and because what seems to happen this first time is not even Wally or Stella but rather a thing that happens sometimes which is the baby gets tangled in the sheets and is choking.
[00:23:30] Yeah so Georgia has fallen asleep in front of the TV and here's Robbie's crying so Slapy goes up to see what's going on and saves him from choking.
[00:23:37] Yeah I feel like that should count as a good deed still.
[00:23:40] Yeah totally especially because the undo that Wally does is unrelated.
[00:23:44] Yeah so they can't really undo that one without it being no longer a safe goosebumps book.
[00:23:50] Yes right.
[00:23:51] Yes well if he goes back downstairs and then when the parents come home Robbie starts screaming and apparently he's been hung in the drapes.
[00:24:00] Yeah I don't understand how it works but it seems like he's been tied up in the drapes like that dead body and silence in the lamp.
[00:24:06] Yeah that makes sense to me.
[00:24:08] Yeah freaky shit.
[00:24:09] Yeah so the parents are flipping out.
[00:24:11] Yeah yeah I understand Wally.
[00:24:15] And Slapy sees small money footprints in suspect Stella.
[00:24:20] It's weird that her footprints would be the same size as the dummies.
[00:24:24] Yes but okay.
[00:24:26] I mean what is Slapy know about shoe size?
[00:24:28] And their mom this time is like well Georgia's very responsible so that doesn't make any sense.
[00:24:34] So there's also I think a little bit of like yeah favoritism maybe.
[00:24:37] And conforming to the roles you're expected to play.
[00:24:40] Yeah and she tells Georgia to put Slapy away and not bring him out anymore because it's upset in Stella.
[00:24:48] And Georgia basically begs like no no no no no no like let me keep him.
[00:24:52] Now I want to take him to the cafeteria to put on a show tomorrow.
[00:24:55] The weird pivot from baby almost dying to people not laughing at her because they're busy eating lunch.
[00:25:03] Which is the cafeteria in terms of horror levels.
[00:25:07] Yeah but that's where we go.
[00:25:09] And also in the meantime Slapy kind of gives himself this interesting pep talk where he says.
[00:25:15] The toy maker who built me was an evil sorcerer at least that's what I read in the journal he left.
[00:25:21] His evil powers went into me and evil is live spelled backwards doing evil keeps you alive.
[00:25:28] So I need to do evil.
[00:25:31] Yeah so he goes into Stella's room to quote unquote take care of her.
[00:25:35] And she takes a Polaroid of him he attacks her mom Georgia come in Stella shows the photo but unfortunately it's blurry.
[00:25:43] Lucy Darrell over again. Yeah she didn't take a video.
[00:25:46] And so it's an unbelievable.
[00:25:48] Oh yeah and then that's when we pivot to the cafeteria.
[00:25:51] Yeah Georgia is doing a really terrible act like she's really not going to be the act part of it like even worse than Jimmy O James I think.
[00:25:58] Yeah I mean she is also 12 and I don't think Jimmy O James is not a professional comedian yet.
[00:26:04] Just starting out in the off off off Broadway.
[00:26:08] And we're it's interesting we're pivoting between both Slapy and Georgia's point of view we're getting her anxiety in his pity.
[00:26:15] And then he thinks he spots Stella in the kitchen.
[00:26:19] She wears a purple baseball cap and he sees it in the kitchen.
[00:26:22] So he just says fuck it and he runs away even though people can see him and he runs into the kitchen.
[00:26:28] And that really makes the show work suddenly the kids are like oh I don't care about min mac and cheese anymore.
[00:26:32] It's a blocking doll fascinating.
[00:26:34] Yeah I didn't realize the show was going to get good.
[00:26:36] Yeah well this is where he finds its Wally wearing Stella's cap.
[00:26:41] And Wally says I want to live in so therefore you have to die but I think small is already alive.
[00:26:46] That was surprising.
[00:26:48] I didn't understand that I have the same note and also I don't see why one has to die.
[00:26:52] Because I thought all Sappy has to do is do some good deeds.
[00:26:55] Yeah to live.
[00:26:57] But maybe there's a different deal with Jimmy going on at the same time with Wally and Jimmy.
[00:27:02] So like my guess would be Jimmy told Wally to thwart Sappy so it's Slappy would die.
[00:27:08] Yeah that makes sense and it's like you'll die if you don't thwart him.
[00:27:11] Yeah it's a real sauce set up.
[00:27:13] I don't understand Jimmy's plan here in the big scheme of things.
[00:27:16] No that's why I was kind of thought he was 12.
[00:27:18] It was like well that would make sense that you don't have very good planning skills.
[00:27:20] But yeah why did he get the other dummy if he just wants them to kill each other off or something?
[00:27:25] That's a great question.
[00:27:27] Okay.
[00:27:29] Well so Wally attacks him and Sappy feels pain.
[00:27:31] That's another thing that we're learning is that they like physically hurt each other and they feel pain.
[00:27:36] Kids are all watching Sappy dumps hot pea soup over Wally and he's burning and it's scalding him.
[00:27:42] And then Georgia tries to stop Sappy.
[00:27:45] He actually doesn't want to hurt her but he ends up basically probably very seriously burning her with a vat of spaghetti.
[00:27:50] Before he does that too she's like stop I demand an explanation.
[00:27:53] Like she's like a mother like intervening between two fighting siblings.
[00:27:56] Oh man moving into Mrs. Boone Shuffle's position.
[00:27:59] So it's a real ultimate Sappy scene because you're fighting in food.
[00:28:07] Two identical characters are fighting in a big messy food pile.
[00:28:11] Yeah that's really gross.
[00:28:13] That's a very consistent theme in the Sappy books is food fights.
[00:28:16] And Georgia just picks herself up and is like unlike so many other protagonists in these boxes like you were dummies she picks them up dumps them in the trash compactor.
[00:28:25] And then they get smashed into splinters and it all goes dark.
[00:28:30] Yeah, but then he wakes up in Jimmy O James' dressing room because it was all a nightmare.
[00:28:34] And if I notes are like really and then I took a second I was like the book is called Sappy's nightmare like I had warning.
[00:28:42] It shouldn't be surprised.
[00:28:44] Also though I mean this kind of message in my head with a timeline of all the books because then it does suggest that Sappy would have been killed by a steam roller.
[00:28:52] So does all this happen before night of a living dummy?
[00:28:55] I have no idea.
[00:28:56] If anyone's worked out a good Sappy timeline that makes kind of consistent sense I would love to hear it.
[00:29:02] Yeah or if you can make your convincing argument for how time travel works, then I would love to hear that also.
[00:29:09] I mean in the context of this like not just in general.
[00:29:13] And then so Sappy is just so relieved to be alive that he's not really listening to Jimmy kind of breaking up with him.
[00:29:18] And then a box arrives with the other dummy and Jimmy says sometimes nightmares come true and reads the curse.
[00:29:27] But what?
[00:29:29] Why does he know his nightmare?
[00:29:31] Yeah, yeah.
[00:29:33] I don't know what's happened.
[00:29:36] I don't either.
[00:29:37] So the ending doesn't add up for me.
[00:29:39] I'm willing to be convinced otherwise but why don't we just say what happened happened unless talk about text on the right.
[00:29:50] My first one is showbiz horror stand up comic edition.
[00:29:54] I think this is a really unexplored area because there's a lot about I mean the Joker gets into the subject right and Sappy's kind of the Joker.
[00:30:01] Yeah, with a constantly changing nemesis.
[00:30:04] Or maybe like less focused on a nemesis but comby and horrors we've talked about kind of go hand in hand and stand up is terrifying because you have to be vulnerable and on stage and people are drunk and heckling.
[00:30:18] So I know there should be more stand up horror, but there is some for example the movie The Last Latv which is about this guy having to decide well this is the biggest show of my life.
[00:30:28] And yes, there is a murder on the loose in the theater but this is the biggest show of my life.
[00:30:34] So yeah and then heckle is about a heckler becoming a stalker and I would watch movies if you're interested.
[00:30:39] Totally.
[00:30:40] There's also in both the original try and sound and the Jordan P.L. reboot there are episodes about stand up comedians.
[00:30:45] Oh right either trading their souls for something I think it might even be one that specifically about a ventralic was coming in the original.
[00:30:51] Well and in this case I guess what these books do similar to at least movies I'm familiar with from doing research for this is like it leans into this idea that comedy requires you a little bit to dehumanize people and slap is like a major extension of that.
[00:31:05] Yeah, totally.
[00:31:06] Well I started off with multiple points of view.
[00:31:09] Pulp fiction the software and size this is where we're seeing different things from the same point of view.
[00:31:16] The movie The Handmaiden which is based on the novel fingersmith by Sarah Waters Rashman a Rashman yeah which I have actually still not seen and also want to see but you've seen the ex house episode bad blood so yeah baby teeth by Zoya stage.
[00:31:30] And then in the comedy realm there's one night at McCool's.
[00:31:34] Oh, I haven't seen that so I live Tyler and some other people.
[00:31:38] Cool yeah, how do you feel I mean I guess it makes sense you have multiple POVs in a story that is both about doubles and about ventralic was in.
[00:31:48] It does but so yes it does on the other hand though I think a lot of horror.
[00:31:55] And this is a gross generalization but like a lot of horror especially in movies does rely on limiting points of view so they don't know what's going on and you're you're more with that character sharing their sense of anxiety and confusion right or you're being.
[00:32:07] Painting by the dramatic irony of knowing like a little bit of a killer's POV yeah so yeah being thrown by the limits of knowledge yeah exactly.
[00:32:19] Yeah so it's interesting that we're and obviously we are still in that situation there's still something that all of the characters don't know but it was interesting to bounce from Jimmy to slappy that Georgia back to slappy type of thing yeah.
[00:32:32] And slappy seems like someone who's profoundly in curious actually they can come to pretty quick conclusions that can be insightful but he is not.
[00:32:40] In the search of knowledge he's more immediate acting and everyone around him is like trying to puzzle things out this is one of the rare exceptions where he is actually put in the position of mean figure something out and he's made a void Andy.
[00:32:52] But he's got a slug sandwich brain there you go I mean you're right I should never in the month.
[00:32:58] I assume that's what got rattled when he gets hit with the baseball that I guess so this looks like how yeah.
[00:33:04] Meet the sandwich here knocked me off my sandwich okay my next category was the fear of being replaced.
[00:33:14] I have two very important cinematic examples of this toy story which is but had a lot of elements of but a toy being replaced by a cooler newer toy and the banshee's a vinaigts year and of course.
[00:33:26] Yeah which was a great movie and kind of horror yeah definitely very much that I think you could frame it as a horror comedy yeah I think it also walks the line between those two things really well.
[00:33:38] Yeah so I have a related one that I in expertly called twinsies.
[00:33:43] Twinsies of course single white female right and here I was thinking especially of instances where somebody's impersonating another person.
[00:33:50] And then there was I went on this deep dive rabbit hole to back to my scholastic book order days.
[00:33:57] So it's trying to find this book which I've been learned as part of a series by Jordan Craig called danger dot com about things scary things about the internet and the first one in the series this is when I read it's called Gemini 7
[00:34:11] and it's about this girl who this boy meets online and she comes and she's trying to replace his girlfriend and in the end like it's like he thinks that he's like killed her she's dead or whatever and then she comes back and turns out it's two twins he was talking through the whole time.
[00:34:26] Oh man you don't know who's on the other side of that computer exactly the internet no one knows your dog or they didn't do 1998.
[00:34:33] Did 97.
[00:34:34] Yeah now they just basically know every single dog going to know you.
[00:34:39] That's interesting and I guess it is also a fear of being replaced type of thing by a by a in a poster.
[00:34:49] And one thing I kind of wonder is in sloppies case he's being he's afraid of being knocked out by an imposter or a better model or whatever but in Stella and George's case it does seem like they think there's not room for the room enough for the two of them or at least Stella thinks that.
[00:35:06] But maybe it's in that case less about being replaced and more about being knocked down a peg yeah like Georgia doesn't want Stella to become ascendant and Stella sick of Georgia being ascendant for sure.
[00:35:18] Okay my next one is redemption arc of course Angel from Buffy is on a very similar quest to Slapy but he extends it over like a million seasons of television rather than a week.
[00:35:34] And so I'm in the morning and most old testament threatening prophecies follow this sort of if you can find but one righteous man or if you don't change your ways I will rain down fire and Brimstone upon you.
[00:35:47] And so Jimmy O'James is occupying the role of God here issuing very strange demand that conflict to what he told the people next door and he's like all part of the plan actually yeah you could say 12 year old by think the salsa also real God logic here.
[00:36:03] So I don't related one which I call villains forced to be good arguably a Christmas girl yes completely completely yeah I'm not an arguably that's what it is.
[00:36:12] It's just shamed into doing good things for people you're right arguably because what is good.
[00:36:18] Or arguably is he really a villain right exactly it's just the protagonist whatever and then I love it's time coming up with good words examples but I thought of both despicable me which I haven't seen but I think is this basic premise and monsters anchor it's like oh well we do this thing that's bad but what if we do this thing that's bad but what if we do it?
[00:36:32] Yeah yeah I'm also head of Halloween yes yeah another failure of goodies.
[00:36:42] My next one is baby in danger a really effective thing in order usually people chicken out of following through on it which is fine with me now at this phase in our lives over break we all got COVID including all of us and we are just
[00:36:59] like laying on the couch watching candy the what's her name desk a be all series true crime series and it opens with this lawn like baby being left alone for hours seen and we were just getting more and more upset.
[00:37:15] Yeah yeah that was tough yeah in our COVID haze is not super comforting watch but who has the energy to get up and change the you know Netflix forever who who
[00:37:28] in another example I mean the witch the hills have eyes it's just this big thing really these people are going into danger and there's a baby done I've created the tension agree.
[00:37:40] So my next one I guess a little bit of a foil to yours parental under reaction where there's stuff going on and the parents are just sort of not dealing with it there's baby teeth again I brought it up earlier but the dad in that is like oh no it's all fine
[00:37:57] it all in last even king I think all the parents are just like I'm too busy with my own stuff don't bother me with what somebody cut you
[00:38:04] with an eye out care yeah I have two jobs and then more recently we watched the patient which has a great parental under reaction moment oh my god
[00:38:13] skip ahead 30 30 seconds if you haven't seen the plan to but the therapist played by Steve Carell the serial killer he's treating goes off
[00:38:22] and his mom comes down what's happened in the state process well he thinks that if he kills his father it's going to solve all his problems
[00:38:28] and she was oh will I?
[00:38:30] It was such pitch perfect but yeah there's a there's a mom there who isn't taking seriously enough that her son is serial killer.
[00:38:38] Yeah that's a really good example and you know I have sympathy for Mrs. Boone shop even as I'm like here are all the things
[00:38:44] that are not working actually something I think that's interesting in this is sloppy kind of demonstrates the limits of
[00:38:50] punishment as a parental technique because when like both actually Georgia and sloppy respond to punishment by being like well this is annoying
[00:38:58] I'll get revenge later you know healthy yeah but like Mrs. Boone shop doesn't know what to do yeah she just needs really seems like
[00:39:07] what she most needs is some quiet time for herself and does not have anyone to support her in getting that yeah
[00:39:13] but her daughter's really can't take on that burden that's true hmm well my final one is out plotted so when a villain does
[00:39:24] something but then another character does something that's one step further and they didn't realize they were stepping into their track
[00:39:29] track for example spy versus spy the magazine series the menu I don't want to give any spoilers for the menu but oh so good
[00:39:39] I thought it was going to be goofy stupid whatever potentially and then I watched it and I was like this masterpiece
[00:39:46] I'm ready to watch it again yeah and then the home alone ratchet it up a notch wonder that is code parallel
[00:39:53] you know well the French movie about a kid trying to that smart Santa and evil Santa Claus yeah for sure it's so good if you haven't seen it that movie
[00:40:01] it's like people under the stairs level strange and good yeah totally unexpected mm-hmm
[00:40:08] well my last one is a dream just like reality where something happens in a dream and then they wake up and something is very similar
[00:40:15] yeah I thought it would be passion from 2012 with Rachel McAdams and the woman who is in the Swedish version of the girl the dragon tattoo
[00:40:25] okay almost it's cool with the back tattoo that's not it so the girl with a butterfly tattoo
[00:40:31] this is it's a brand-of-pull movie that's a remake of a French movie which I actually really want to see about these two women
[00:40:40] who work together in their rivals and there's this sort of long sequence where someone thinks she is killing someone
[00:40:48] and then wakes up you know from this nightmare and then it's happening again you know all these things that I've seen it
[00:40:55] I was good yeah I would watch it again it was alright okay like there's there are parts of it that are good
[00:41:02] through the brand-of-pull movie yeah and I like I said I really want to see the thing it's based on though
[00:41:06] and it's gay I mean it's in the brand-of-pull away
[00:41:10] it's surprising how not gave this this slappy book at least is there a lot of slappy books don't really get gay
[00:41:15] decide being about doubles which is always almost always gay
[00:41:18] and then the phrase in cane has some similar moments too where it's like is it was a dream was it what's happened
[00:41:25] yeah what's reality even there's also a little less on point that's still worth mentioning swimming pool from 2003
[00:41:34] which is a French movie about it's this one does get gay where it's these two women who are sharing this like vacation house
[00:41:40] and tension it's a French and then there's in dreams which I remember not being very good
[00:41:48] but Duke kind of want to revisit it's from 1999 with the NetBending and Robert Downey Jr.
[00:41:53] thanks for having the dreams of a serial killer so she's like somehow psychically connected to this person
[00:41:58] so it's like what happens in the dream happens in reality type of thing
[00:42:01] that's cool there was an ex-files episode about that too
[00:42:05] a probably a really Taylor oh yeah
[00:42:09] okay well yeah all of these things mapping this on to our taxonomy of kinds of horror that's overlapped with
[00:42:17] and I think it is really notable the exception of it not getting gay
[00:42:21] but Savage is like in no way interested in that
[00:42:24] no he's here for revenge yeah and hijacks
[00:42:27] yeah and he doesn't want to like bond with people including his own doubles
[00:42:30] he just wants to be singular everyone else to fall in line then
[00:42:34] shared universe
[00:42:37] who the fuck is Jimi O'James and how does this link up to brighter living dummy or not
[00:42:42] yeah my theory is that we are seeing a precursor where Slapy was trying to make it big kind of going legit
[00:42:49] and I assume Jimi O'James must be the one who tosses him in the garbage that sets off the NetBending
[00:42:58] and then the only other kind of explanations I have is that slug things, handwitch thing that gets out
[00:43:05] or it's like in cocoon form that must be what enables
[00:43:10] maybe that's the spirit of Slapy they can get into other dummy sort of checky style
[00:43:14] but I don't know
[00:43:15] well it's interesting because in bright of the living dummy was he also thrown out after the act?
[00:43:21] I don't remember what happens at the end of that
[00:43:24] no I mean at the beginning does have because they go to see him and then afterwards they get Slapy
[00:43:28] but I don't
[00:43:29] oh yeah they I think they do get a maverick garbage can we
[00:43:31] yeah so it's like is this the prequel to bright of the living dummy or is the prequel to all of them
[00:43:37] and because it would make sense if like this is what immediately happens
[00:43:40] and then Slapy pucks it up and he's like well I'm throwing you out
[00:43:44] and then the other girls find him but it's kind of hard to say how they all fit together
[00:43:48] well especially because Slapy's kind of it's complicated
[00:43:51] as we say he's this kind of mechanically reproduced object
[00:43:55] so maybe the reason he can have timelines that don't add up is because there are kind of multiple of him
[00:44:00] but then he does seem to feel like he's a singular one of the dummies
[00:44:03] and you know he's made from a cut of a coffin that no one else is made from
[00:44:06] as far as he knows as far as he knows
[00:44:08] I'm also not sure how much of the evil comes from the coffin
[00:44:11] how much the evil comes from the transmigration of his maker's soul into him
[00:44:16] and how much is maybe just his own self-mophologizing
[00:44:20] and is it maybe just like there are actually lots of Slapies
[00:44:23] and they all think that they're the one and only Slapy
[00:44:26] but in fact just like Buzz Lightyear
[00:44:28] yeah exactly
[00:44:29] oh man I think that's it
[00:44:31] they all think they're the only one
[00:44:33] probably
[00:44:34] yeah I feel like there's kind of with his desire to become viral right
[00:44:38] there is kind of a nice little fabled there where it's like
[00:44:42] well they're all like identical Slapies
[00:44:44] but sometimes when pushes their way to the top
[00:44:46] yeah yeah
[00:44:47] yeah
[00:44:50] yeah Jimmy O James I think he's just a hapless stooge
[00:44:53] who's trying to take an easy way out
[00:44:55] yeah
[00:44:56] trying to have an easy stand up career
[00:44:58] yeah I bet he became a stand up because he's like I can sleep in
[00:45:00] not thinking that there's like practicing or I'm the funniest guy in the class
[00:45:04] I bet I'll be a great stand up comic
[00:45:06] right
[00:45:07] okay
[00:45:08] so I had a related question
[00:45:11] which was kind of what do we learn in this book about Slapy as a character
[00:45:16] he has an obsession with messy rooms
[00:45:18] he has an obsession with paint
[00:45:20] food messes
[00:45:21] oh yeah
[00:45:22] he's made of a stolen coffin
[00:45:24] kind of a giving tree gone wrong
[00:45:27] he never knew his father
[00:45:29] he maybe has no mother
[00:45:31] is there a way of making sense of all the little quirks we get about him
[00:45:37] well one more I would add is that he does attach himself to a person
[00:45:41] and it seems inconvenient for him to go start over with a new person
[00:45:44] right he doesn't want to leave Jimmy
[00:45:46] yeah he's not excited to go with these other girls
[00:45:48] it's true
[00:45:49] and he doesn't like in the first book
[00:45:51] well I guess in the first book it's most sinister wood
[00:45:52] but like in the other books
[00:45:54] what he wants us to stay
[00:45:56] in the first book
[00:45:58] he's a very old girl
[00:46:00] he likes creating chaos right
[00:46:01] messy rooms
[00:46:02] paint
[00:46:03] the food
[00:46:04] like food is really just a way of like controlling other people for him
[00:46:09] but it's also a very kid way of making a mess too
[00:46:13] to the extent that you can see Slapy perhaps
[00:46:15] as representing a fear of children on the part of an adult
[00:46:19] right
[00:46:20] like throwing food around the kitchen throwing paint around their room
[00:46:23] and maybe you're hoping that an eight year old will still find that funny
[00:46:25] in a way that like little kids definitely do
[00:46:27] but a natural 12 year old might not
[00:46:30] yeah because the actual 12 year old might have to deal with the younger siblings
[00:46:33] who's doing stuff like that
[00:46:34] and they're like
[00:46:35] this is the chaos of childhood that I don't want to deal with
[00:46:37] and it's like both funny
[00:46:38] and like I can connect to this chaos
[00:46:40] but also
[00:46:42] what if I was blamed for that then
[00:46:44] yeah
[00:46:45] and with the messed up kind of master slave
[00:46:47] rhetoric that Slapy uses in earlier books
[00:46:49] he doesn't use here
[00:46:50] which was a nice break
[00:46:51] yeah it was a very nice break
[00:46:53] and bringing it up
[00:46:54] and I guess there's the element of
[00:46:56] he's both very dependent
[00:46:58] but can still
[00:47:00] ruin everyone's life
[00:47:02] and in that sense he is in charge of the house too
[00:47:05] again like the sort of fear of a child
[00:47:07] yeah
[00:47:08] it's like oh well you're helpless in these ways
[00:47:09] but also you can control everything
[00:47:10] right look that King Baby song you played for me one time
[00:47:13] yeah it's a song called His Majesty the Baby by Mom
[00:47:16] which the narrator
[00:47:17] is like a very entitled dude
[00:47:19] who's very jealous of this baby
[00:47:21] who's taking all this woman's attention
[00:47:23] at the end he's like
[00:47:24] but I want to be the baby
[00:47:25] yeah
[00:47:26] yeah so I have a related question about Slapy
[00:47:28] this isn't this is sort of a
[00:47:30] do you want to show your universe?
[00:47:31] I have a couple more
[00:47:32] okay never mind them
[00:47:33] okay well they're just quick
[00:47:34] one is just an observation
[00:47:36] that Arles Dines joke books
[00:47:38] seem to exist in the goose first
[00:47:40] I remember reading some of these very same jokes
[00:47:43] oh my joeville bob yeah
[00:47:44] yeah and like
[00:47:45] I and the cover of 101 wacky kid jokes
[00:47:48] I think I've mentioned before
[00:47:49] one sticks in my head for the boys
[00:47:51] like jumping out with a scary mask on
[00:47:53] behind the couch
[00:47:54] that how do you stop an elephant from charging
[00:47:56] I feel like that one might not work anymore
[00:47:58] right it barely worked when I was a child
[00:48:00] I just really understand it as a child
[00:48:02] but you're right so these are remembered
[00:48:03] and I definitely had at least one joeville bob joke book
[00:48:06] yeah and they were also in this holastic catalog
[00:48:09] and I like that he kind of doesn't care
[00:48:10] that the joke might not make sense to a child
[00:48:12] no like that's that is the thing about dad jokes
[00:48:15] they're amusing to the teller
[00:48:17] someone else gets it great
[00:48:19] but the point is you amused yourself
[00:48:21] and you sold a lot of books
[00:48:23] yeah I also was going to observe that again
[00:48:26] in the goose first looking at a group of animals
[00:48:28] constitutes a science project
[00:48:30] in this case she's looking at snails
[00:48:32] I wonder if there's a mortemann in her life
[00:48:35] and then I was wondering
[00:48:37] is Robbie baby Robbie
[00:48:39] named after Arles Dines
[00:48:40] and does his fate map on to how Arles Dines
[00:48:44] is feeling in his relationship
[00:48:46] with scholastic at this point
[00:48:48] he's all tied up in the drapes
[00:48:50] in litigation he and him in parachute
[00:48:52] and scholastic at this point
[00:48:54] very possibly
[00:48:55] but you had some theories and queries
[00:48:57] no my theories are my queries rather
[00:49:00] or one of them is about sloppy
[00:49:02] so it's related to the questions
[00:49:04] you're asking about some of these common themes
[00:49:06] but here we also learn that he gets tired
[00:49:08] needs to sleep
[00:49:09] he feels pain
[00:49:10] why like how does he work
[00:49:12] that part of the curse or magic
[00:49:14] and is any of that connected to the sort of consistent things
[00:49:16] that you brought up
[00:49:18] yeah I think that
[00:49:20] if he needs to eat
[00:49:22] I mean that makes sense because he moves
[00:49:24] and stuff
[00:49:25] he's just obsessed with something
[00:49:27] he's causing food problems
[00:49:29] if he needs to sleep
[00:49:30] I don't really know how sleep works
[00:49:32] but I think if you have complex cognition
[00:49:35] you typically need to sleep
[00:49:37] just to like reset
[00:49:40] but I don't know that he has a brain per se
[00:49:42] so I'm not
[00:49:43] on an anatomical level you know
[00:49:45] science experts weigh in
[00:49:47] but it makes sense
[00:49:49] me that he would need to sleep
[00:49:51] and that's kind of part of like a dummy
[00:49:53] mythos right
[00:49:55] you put them inside their case
[00:49:57] they're going to sleep
[00:49:59] and that's what a puppet person will say
[00:50:01] a puppet person puppeteer
[00:50:02] and also for a lot of them
[00:50:04] when you lay them horizontally the eyes
[00:50:06] close
[00:50:07] I remember going to like a show with like a clown
[00:50:09] or something and they'd be like
[00:50:10] oh and now it's time for like
[00:50:11] someone so to go back to sleep
[00:50:13] and they put the thing in their case
[00:50:15] that puppet in their case
[00:50:17] it's not a thing I know from TV
[00:50:19] I think I wasn't really super keen on
[00:50:21] going to shows with clown
[00:50:23] I wasn't either
[00:50:25] it just kind of happened sometimes
[00:50:27] if you're trying yourself
[00:50:29] in these places
[00:50:31] yeah I wasn't super keen on going to shows
[00:50:33] with dummies either
[00:50:35] but I think that it's unsettling for the kids
[00:50:36] to take an in and out of a box
[00:50:38] so you need to have that framing
[00:50:40] but I think I've wanted for our
[00:50:42] feel for a new question
[00:50:43] it just sounds me like Sophie's alive
[00:50:44] I think
[00:50:45] yeah I was wondering too
[00:50:46] because he you know is it
[00:50:48] that he is
[00:50:50] in sold he's given somehow
[00:50:52] these properties of like a human body
[00:50:54] or you know the
[00:50:56] curse that brings him to life
[00:50:58] the magic is giving him these bodily constraints
[00:51:00] maybe with controlling him
[00:51:02] like checking the balance
[00:51:04] on his power
[00:51:06] yeah that makes sense
[00:51:08] I don't know it makes sense in the like again
[00:51:10] god logic
[00:51:12] well create a person
[00:51:14] I'll give them evil desires
[00:51:16] but I'll punish him for him
[00:51:18] and I'll throw on a conscience
[00:51:20] but it won't always work
[00:51:22] yeah they have to reproduce in this way
[00:51:24] but it will be really painful
[00:51:26] right I think this might be a situation
[00:51:28] much like say what do you call that
[00:51:30] where you're trying to explain behaviors
[00:51:32] through a Darwinian logic
[00:51:33] yeah oh evolution of biology
[00:51:35] both like teleologies of all sorts
[00:51:37] including evolutionary biology
[00:51:39] including you know origin myths
[00:51:41] like you find in
[00:51:43] all of that
[00:51:45] I think that's what we're doing with Slappy words
[00:51:47] like this thing just is
[00:51:49] it doesn't totally add up
[00:51:51] you're saying we need to stop
[00:51:53] I can ask questions about Slappy
[00:51:55] just take a museum
[00:51:57] I'm saying it can be fun to generate
[00:51:59] interpretive possibilities
[00:52:01] our explanations
[00:52:03] Fair enough Fair enough
[00:52:05] okay well I have a related question
[00:52:07] about the evil part
[00:52:09] so evil is live spelled backwards
[00:52:11] did you immediately try to flip dead
[00:52:13] in your head to see if you could make anything out of it
[00:52:15] I used
[00:52:17] exactly
[00:52:19] what is the theory of evil operating here
[00:52:21] we have you know in criminal law
[00:52:23] there's the idea of the actus race
[00:52:25] and the men's raya
[00:52:27] and those two things together
[00:52:29] and that constitutes a bad act
[00:52:31] Slappy does not commit a crime here
[00:52:33] he does good deeds with a good mind
[00:52:35] someone else does a bad deed
[00:52:37] why is it a bad act
[00:52:39] so I agree with you
[00:52:41] I was really confused by his logic
[00:52:43] that a good deed can be undone
[00:52:45] and then the other thing that's interesting
[00:52:47] is like you could argue about
[00:52:49] what is the nature of a good deed
[00:52:51] is it like something done selflessly
[00:52:53] because that's not what he's doing here
[00:52:55] or is it just you have done a net good in the world
[00:52:57] I think that is the logic
[00:52:59] which is also
[00:53:01] which I guess is why it follows
[00:53:03] then that you haven't done net good
[00:53:05] in the world if somebody undoes it
[00:53:07] even though again like I just don't think
[00:53:09] that's what it means to do something good
[00:53:11] well and it also allows him to lean into these weird counterfactuals
[00:53:13] where he's like so if I don't
[00:53:15] do a bad deed
[00:53:17] net good
[00:53:19] or I kill someone
[00:53:21] but then I comfort someone
[00:53:23] net good
[00:53:25] how does he explain it
[00:53:27] or if you dig it out
[00:53:29] slightly in the negative
[00:53:31] I feel like this is applying
[00:53:33] for the Chicago School of Economic Theory to morality
[00:53:35] yeah or trying to analyze
[00:53:37] like God's love against my allies
[00:53:39] like well we suffer
[00:53:41] but he loves us
[00:53:43] type of type of thing
[00:53:45] and against his Bart Killing Polys糕
[00:53:47] I'm in favor of his summer Killing Polys糕
[00:53:49] yeah and I guess
[00:53:51] And Slapy says you do evil to live, but yeah, there's not a corollary of you do good to stay alive.
[00:53:57] I mean, yeah, it just makes sense. It seems like you know, Aralstein is always asking us to come up against the absurdity of our systems of morality.
[00:54:05] He's the great theologian of our time. Yes. A godless theologian.
[00:54:11] Well, actually, this is a sidebar when I say a great godless theologian. I also mean
[00:54:17] Extremely better than what's his fuck Richard Dawkins Dawkins. Well, yeah, I mean, they're not even the same universe now
[00:54:24] I even listen to him when you have the goosebumps for us exactly
[00:54:27] So so my next question is who is the protagonist? I think I heard you mentioned who you thought it was earlier
[00:54:34] But I want to hear why I guess it could be Slapy or it could be
[00:54:39] Georgia
[00:54:39] I think I must maybe said Georgia earlier
[00:54:42] And yeah, I would think she's our 12 year old 12 to 13 year old goosebumps kid wearing jeans
[00:54:48] So I guess I don't know necessarily what a protagonist is, but I think
[00:54:53] She is the yeah that I would say she is even though Slapy is like our main character and the one we're sort of rooting for
[00:54:59] He's like an anti hero
[00:55:00] And she is the protagonist
[00:55:03] Even if she's not the protagonist in this book
[00:55:06] Like she's playing the role of protagonist. I see yeah generic goosebumps protagonist
[00:55:10] Yeah, I mean, I just thought it was interesting because in most of these books you get one person and
[00:55:16] It's very clear who we're following who we're rooting for but in most Slapy books like we're rooting against Slapy
[00:55:23] Right we're rooting for the kid and then here like giving us his perspective. I think in like making him
[00:55:31] Don't know sympathetic is the right word, but I think wanting probably the Slapy narratives to continue
[00:55:37] Even if you want to root against him in general like the devil. Yeah, it's sort of for me
[00:55:43] It was it made sort of questionable like who who is like and obviously you're booking on more of the protagonist
[00:55:49] But like who like whose narrative are really following because it really
[00:55:52] I
[00:55:53] Guess it started to feel like how later in a franchise you sometime like those the sympathy kind of sometimes starts to flip because the character
[00:56:01] You've been following most consistently is ready. Yeah, Freddie
[00:56:05] Jason exactly and so or like later in the software franchise like all of the like people who were being murdered are just kind of like
[00:56:13] Whatever this you want the traps. They're over here. We're gonna we're doing a really complicated thing with our villain
[00:56:19] Okay, so it felt like that a little bit
[00:56:21] And I think that's where you get things like the Rob Zombie much more lined Halloween where they're like okay
[00:56:26] Well now we need to have like a sad
[00:56:29] Origin story for Michael Myers that makes him
[00:56:32] Lesson of villain which I think my people objected to it that is like yeah, you spend so much time in the villains head
[00:56:37] You start to want to understand them. Yeah, I think it makes him less of a villain though. It's just a like
[00:56:43] Yeah, it's sort of like complicating where where your case usually is right well and also I
[00:56:48] Guess yeah, I'm thinking that in the Rob Zombie case it's making him less culpable
[00:56:54] But again, I don't think it is I think it's just like oh this is why he's that way. I think that sometimes like
[00:57:00] There's a confusion between we're offering an explanation or view and we're excusing it
[00:57:05] And I like I don't think it is that one in a ghostly sentence in case you'd be able to take his bad childhood into account to even though having
[00:57:16] Said that he was guilty of first degree murder that would warrant the death penalty
[00:57:20] You could get him off based on a bad childhood. That's true
[00:57:24] But in fact what happens is he kills everyone and gets out and kills more people yeah, so
[00:57:30] I would say that he's still the villain of the series. Yeah, this is my life without life without parole if they all turn it in
[00:57:37] Yeah, and slappy I guess yeah, but we like an entertaining villain right because it does let you do all the things that you
[00:57:42] Wish you could do or are afraid someone might do but you get to see it in a safe format
[00:57:46] Yeah, and like an antithecary
[00:57:49] A villain they can all be protagonist
[00:57:51] It's just it's interesting because I felt like with Georgia and Stella
[00:57:55] There's a part of me that's like yeah
[00:57:56] We've seen this before but the thing that makes it something we haven't seen before is we're getting more of slappy and slappy
[00:58:02] Has to act against type like he has to act against his normal instincts. Yeah, which made that is interesting
[00:58:07] Feel like more of a like like slap slappy was the star even though
[00:58:11] We're not in his head all of the time or even most of the time
[00:58:14] Maybe it gives you yeah a little bit more of a
[00:58:17] Permission to root for him because he's theoretically doing good deeds
[00:58:20] Yeah, you're not on you're not as much in the head of the kid getting blamed because usually you are and then you're feeling like
[00:58:27] The injustice of it with that kid whereas it's not only not Georgia getting blamed
[00:58:31] It's like Stella so we're like really far removed from like what she's going through
[00:58:35] Yeah, it's like less painful
[00:58:36] Which actually leads into a point I had a question about so you've read maybe no since the art of cruelty
[00:58:42] Yes, I feel like slappy is the low-art embodiment of something like
[00:58:47] The artist she talks about there for example
[00:58:48] Chris burden who has a friend shoot him and films it and that's the art piece right or he like attacked
[00:58:56] woman a TV and a TV broadcast a woman who is interviewing him and like held her at a nice point
[00:59:01] And he's like that's my art
[00:59:03] So in the art of cruelty maybe Nelson is always looking at things like this one artist who like gives heroin to people
[00:59:10] and
[00:59:12] she's like
[00:59:13] You know
[00:59:14] Is this making you confront the?
[00:59:18] Sort of viciousness of humanity or is this providing a catharsis for it or is this perpetuating it like what is this doing this kind of art that is
[00:59:29] taboo or bad right and
[00:59:33] I was thinking well something that she basically gets to in the art of cruelty is that
[00:59:38] What she's interested in more is what it makes you able to think or feel and I think part of what you're getting it is
[00:59:44] really that's that right like what do slapping books allow you to feel normally in their
[00:59:49] Entry into the taboo and violent they let you feel
[00:59:53] Kind of shame and fear of being blamed for something you didn't do
[00:59:58] This book not so much. Mm-hmm. I think I'd be interested in know what you think it makes you feel I agree
[01:00:03] Also, I will just copy up. It's been five or six years since ever the art of cruelty
[01:00:08] It's whenever the arganos came out. That's when I read it. Yeah
[01:00:11] I read it like right at the end of my pregnancy. It was a weird pairing
[01:00:15] Well in the arganos she talks about talking about the book while pregnant
[01:00:17] Yeah, that's what it got me to do it and like okay, let's see if this works
[01:00:21] so
[01:00:23] We've talked about with the other slappy books and ableist to feel what is this one?
[01:00:26] and ableist to feel here as you point it's really different. I guess there is
[01:00:31] You could argue some sense of injustice where it's like oh this person trying to kill me
[01:00:35] I gotta outsmart them. Uh-huh
[01:00:37] Like I don't feel particularly bad for Jimin. It should get act
[01:00:40] um
[01:00:42] I think it's allowing
[01:00:44] like this interplay of
[01:00:46] tension and hope and being sorted because like he's like, ah yes. I did it. Oh no. It's undone
[01:00:51] You know, so it's more about them the mind game
[01:00:54] He's trying to navigate like the chess game he's playing. Yeah, I almost feel like
[01:00:58] Stella being really unfairly blamed is just sort of the B plot. Mm-hmm
[01:01:02] So it's like that for me felt like it took a back seat
[01:01:05] I also don't feel bad for Jimin. Maybe I'm supposed to but I don't. I don't either
[01:01:10] And like I feel sympathy for Georgia who's just like this is my dummy like I want to protect him and do stuff
[01:01:16] And like why should why should my interests be
[01:01:19] Take a take a back seat to what's going on with Stella?
[01:01:23] But again, I also feel like on some level she's sort of
[01:01:27] Supporting slash enabling the slappy plot. So I feel like this is just hitting emotionally different beats
[01:01:32] Yeah, then a lot of the other ones
[01:01:33] I think that what's happening is it's just in some level taking the danger in a more extreme way
[01:01:38] Like somebody in a wheelchair like being hit or almost hit by a van
[01:01:42] Baby almost dying like it's it's the fact that he's doing the good deeds explicitly. It means that like
[01:01:49] Maybe we can't explore some of those like more violent things but pull back
[01:01:53] Although I feel like there've been violent and like upsetting things in the books before especially in series 2000
[01:01:58] So I don't know if that's actually right
[01:02:00] Well, I think that actually what you were saying about Georgia not being the real protagonists kind of gets at some of this
[01:02:04] So there is these ratcheted up like oh wheelchair going to street baby choking
[01:02:10] Like super scary stuff
[01:02:11] But the characters who are having those feelings are we're set back from right?
[01:02:14] Georgia's not really the central character slappy is
[01:02:17] This is Boondrop certainly isn't Stella certainly so a lot of those feelings are still there
[01:02:21] But actually we're experiencing it all from slappy's POV where it's like okay
[01:02:24] This is another bad point for me. Yes, inconvenient to worry anything else
[01:02:28] It lets you get in the head of someone who does not have an emotional reaction to other people's pain
[01:02:33] But witnesses it and thinks about how it kind of
[01:02:36] Will or will not enable him to reach his goals. Yeah, yeah
[01:02:41] The point of view of a sociopath I guess yeah, what does it feel like to dead in your emotions
[01:02:46] But witness horror
[01:02:48] My final thing was just I looked up Georgia and Stella Boondrop after such singular name
[01:02:54] Georgia Boondrop there is a book Georgia Boondrop
[01:02:57] Do you think she was one of Matt's friends and one of those were like people would give Matt like five dollars or whatever to have his dad put them in the book?
[01:03:04] Well both of them are native New Yorkers. So it's quite possible
[01:03:07] H wise they might be a little younger, but I'm not actually sure it's possible. Yeah Georgia Boondrop is yoga instructor
[01:03:13] cool and
[01:03:15] Stella Boondrop is a body image blogger who briefly went viral about 10 years ago
[01:03:21] No no good body
[01:03:23] Yeah, like body positive. Yeah
[01:03:26] I do like the idea of that as outcomes for both of these two
[01:03:30] First of all that they end up living in separate states and second of all that they have these you know rewarding on to
[01:03:35] Penorial journeys
[01:03:36] But where I really think the name comes from is Boondrop is apparently a major donor in the Dayton area
[01:03:43] So there is a Boondrop school of medicine and a Boondrop Museum of discovery
[01:03:48] So some of those things were like I was walking by a wall and I saw a name. I'll take it. Thanks
[01:03:53] Yeah, Daniel is like Boondrop
[01:03:55] I love it
[01:03:57] Dad joke on his own
[01:03:59] Exactly
[01:04:00] Not that we make kind of people's last names certainly not doing that
[01:04:03] I just think Arles Dane would go those those consonants and vowel combinations
[01:04:08] Just I think the kids will like it. We don't hear a book series that came from something he saw in a Walmart
[01:04:13] So like I feel like this is not borough
[01:04:16] Well, we're gonna get more slappy in the future because there's a whole slappies world thing
[01:04:21] Series that's so far away. Yeah. What are reading nets? We are reading earth geeks must go
[01:04:27] Which I heard is good okay. I've been told cool
[01:04:30] Well, I look forward to discussing it with you. Yeah. What would you write this book?
[01:04:35] Give it for the wares. Yeah me too. Yeah, this is solid four. Yeah. I enjoyed reading it
[01:04:40] It was unexpected
[01:04:42] Yeah, well, I'm having a day back doing this with you and with all of you
[01:04:47] That's right. We want to know what you thought of
[01:04:50] slappy's nightmare and you know, whatever else you want to share
[01:04:54] Yeah, you can let us know at say podden die gmail.com or you can get in touch with us on twitter and instagram at say podden die
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[01:05:04] If you if you so choose leave us five the wares wherever you rate your podcasts it helps us get more followers
[01:05:10] Feel happy. Listener to where those are the scares good boog and boo
[01:05:20] Stella dropped to the edge of her bed breathing hard for entire body trembling
[01:05:24] slappy watched her muttering angrily to herself shaking her head for red hair falling wetly over her face
[01:05:30] I only have a week to do my good deeds that I'm really I can't have a ruining them for me
[01:05:35] I have no choice I have to let her know who's boss around here
[01:05:38] slappy picked himself up off the floor he straightened his sport jacket and shuffled quickly into Stella's room
[01:05:44] Her eyes both didn't shock when she saw him walking up to her
[01:05:47] But slappy didn't give her a chance to cry out
[01:05:49] He shoved his wooden hand hard against her mouth and brought his face close to hers
[01:05:53] Stella he rast
[01:05:54] The next time you ruin my good deed
[01:05:56] I'm gonna stick my hand so far down your throat. They'll splinters in your stomach